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Peter Caton
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Subject: Magnesium Lithium alloy LAZ933
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Can anyone supply any data on alloy LAZ933. Composition, properties and suppliers ?
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| 19-May-2005 00:32 |
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V Laxmanan
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I remember reading an article in Modern Casting on casting of Mg-Li alloys (I believe one of the authors was Prof. Merton Flemings). More recently, I found the following article by Bach, Niemeyer, and Haferkamp on magnesium-lithium alloys which might be of interest.
http://www.iw.uni-hannover.de/sfb/sfb390/englisch/a4_e.html
The density of Mg-Li alloys decreases as Li content increases from 0 to 16%. The ductility also increases, as shown by the Charpy impact values.
Finally, note the following remarks: On this basis two interesting alloy systems (LAE and LZE) were developed, which show compared to standard alloys comparable mechanical properties with superior ductility.
Perhaps, the authors of this article can provide additional information. Hope this helps.
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| 31-May-2005 15:52 |
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V Laxmanan
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The following may also be of interest.
Magnesium Alloys 2000 by Trans Tech Publishers
http://www.ttp.net/web/search/toc.cfm?ID=0-87849-862-1
Magnesium-lithium metal matrix composites, by S. Kudela
Int. J. Materials and Product Technology, vol. 18 Nos. 1/2/3 (2003)
http://www.interscience.com/storage/f108263719511412.pdf
Figure 3 of Kudela’s article provides a bar graph of UTS of various Mg-Li-X alloys. The UTS is more than doubled with addition of Al and Zn, going from about 100 MPa to 210 MPa (for Mg8Li5Al1Zn). Ref. 14 (total of 72 references) in this article “Development of Super-Light Magnesium Materials” by K. Schemme (1993, in German) is also of interest.
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| 31-May-2005 16:18 |
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Stephen Brown
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Cost is an issue worth considering though.
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| 10-Jun-2005 13:45 |
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Peter Caton
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Thanks to V Laxmanan & Stephen Brown for their comments.
I had seen the German work & have been in touch with the Hanover people (& await info from them).
The Kudela paper is very interesting although I don't agree with some of his conclusions regards corrosion. Indeed, I'm somewhat sceptical as to how people (at Battelle Columbus ?) appear to have found that LA141 and LAZ933 had good SCC resistance ?
I've now unearthed (through extensive web searches) a copy of NASA SP-5028 which mentions LAZ933 (and LA141) and I've had info from NASA that it was originally supplied by Brooks & Perkins who were taken over by AAR. (They now don't appear to have any interest in Mg alloys any more !)
So that appears to be the end of the line for commercial Mg-Li alloys as even LA141 has been removed from the ASTM std.
I agree with Stephen that cost is a factor (for automotive applications) but my present interest is in materials for spacecraft, where the cost/benefit ratio from light weight is somewhat different.
If anyone has any further info on potentially commercial Mg-Li alloys I'd be very interested to hear ?
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| 10-Jun-2005 17:50 |
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V Laxmanan
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I've now unearthed (through extensive web searches) a copy of NASA SP-5028 which mentions LAZ933 (and LA141) and I've had info from NASA that it was originally supplied by Brooks & Perkins who were taken over by AAR. (They now don't appear to have any interest in Mg alloys any more !)
I agree with Stephen that cost is a factor (for automotive applications) but my present interest is in materials for spacecraft, where the cost/benefit ratio from lightweight is somewhat different.
If anyone has any further info on potentially commercial Mg-Li alloys I'd be very interested to hear ?
I did look at one NASA report, but I did not find LAZ933 mentioned in that report. How did you find the NASA report? Can you share it?
For aerospace applications, Mg-Li systems is ideal since alloy with Li produces a material that is lighter than pure Mg, whereas addition of other alloying agents (Al, Zn, etc.) increases the density. With private companies entering space (the most recent being PlanetSpace (http://www.planetspace.org), I believe Mg-Li alloys will become the alloys of interest in the coming decades.
As for cost, while this is certainly an issue, I believe, significant reductions in manufacturing costs can be achieved through the innovative use of semisolid processing (Thixomolding, thixoforging, thixocasting, etc.). Mg-Li alloys are indeed ideally suited for this purpose.
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| 10-Jun-2005 20:35 |
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V Laxmanan
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>Thanks to V Laxmanan & Stephen Brown for their
>comments.
>
>I had seen the German work & have been in touch with
>the Hanover people (& await info from them).
>
>The Kudela paper is very interesting although I don't
>agree with some of his conclusions regards corrosion.
>Indeed, I'm somewhat sceptical as to how people (at
>Battelle Columbus ?) appear to have found that LA141 and
>LAZ933 had good SCC resistance ?
>
>I've now unearthed (through extensive web searches) a copy
>of NASA SP-5028 which mentions LAZ933 (and LA141) and
>I've had info from NASA that it was originally supplied
>by Brooks & Perkins who were taken over by AAR. (They
>now don't appear to have any interest in Mg alloys any more !)
>
>So that appears to be the end of the line for commercial
>Mg-Li alloys as even LA141 has been removed from the ASTM
>std.
>
>I agree with Stephen that cost is a factor (for automotive
>applications) but my present interest is in materials for
>spacecraft, where the cost/benefit ratio from light
>weight is somewhat different.
>
>If anyone has any further info on potentially commercial
>Mg-Li alloys I'd be very interested to hear ?
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| 10-Jun-2005 20:36 |
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Peter Caton
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you can find NASA-SP-5028 at the following link
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19650020351_1965020351.pdf
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| 10-Jun-2005 22:11 |
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V Laxmanan
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Thanks Peter Caton for the link to the NASA report. I was unable to find this report when I did the search for Mg-Li alloys some time back.
The final comments on pages 38 and 39 of the report are worth reviewing. Firstly, it is noted that optimum melting and casting procedures must be developed and that it would probably take 2 years. I suspect this might still be true, considering the invasion of Mg from China and the reports on the quality of Mg.
Secondly, while Mg-Li alloys are readily weldable, no filler materials for brazing are available. Thirdly, LAZ33 alloy needs more study and evaluation before it can be made in production quantities.
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| 10-Jun-2005 22:32 |
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V Laxmanan
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A recent study (initiated Jan 2005, to be completed April 2006) is aimed at characterization of crash worthiness of Mg-Li alloys.
Application of superlight magnesium-lithium-alloys - Characterization of the crash relevant material behaviour
http://www-e.uni-magdeburg.de/fodb/fodb/index.php3?option=projektanzeige&lang=1&perform=&pid=5969&lang=1&perform=
Otto-von-Guericke-University Magdeburg
Faculty of Mechanical Engineering
Institute of Materials Technology and Materials Testing
Project Manager: Prof. Dr. Doris Regener
Universitätsplatz 2
39106 Magdeburg
( : +49 (0)391 67-14577
Fax : +49 (0)391 67-14569
e-Mail : doris.regener@mb.uni-magdeburg.de
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| 11-Jun-2005 00:47 |
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Joshua Deetz
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I have copies of many B&P books, papers and other. Additionaly I have copies of US BOM research from 1956 into a wide range of Mag-lithiums. The key issue really is aside from some small production would you need more, I can offer you LA141, LAZ933, LA131,LM21 and many others, but the issue is high sample costs and little commercial need. I have recenly had some produciton of LA141 which turned out quite nice, costs where quite high. We can reduce costs by 75-80% from present costs with any meaningful commercial demand.
Any questions please feel free to contact me directly.
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| 28-Jul-2005 11:42 |
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Stephen Barrell
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I made it in the old Dow Foundry, once
It makes wonderful research but Lithium and Mg is a bomb
I doubt MEL is casting such alloys
S
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| 03-Aug-2005 07:24 |
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Peter Caton
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>I made it in the old Dow Foundry, once
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>It makes wonderful research but Lithium and Mg is a bomb
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>I doubt MEL is casting such alloys
>
>S
My Thanks to Joshua and Stephen for their comments.
I have found some info on LAZ933 from elsewhere but I don't think I'll be taking this one further.
My interest was in information for a new handbook of materials for space applications, so ultra-light Mg-Li would appear to have been 'spot-on' ? Certainly there was much activity in the 1960's but that all seems to have faded away. Possibly because other materials came along (or possibly because of the dangers involved in making the stuff !) or possibly even due to concerns over corrosion ?
Possibly even it might be more ingenious design to produce strong structure a different way (e.g., if you roll a piece of paper into a tube you can stand a glass of beer on it !)
There is renewed activity in Germany & Japan but the words of Tom Paxton keep singing in my head "This world goes round and round....."
I'm now compiling data on MMC's and, guess what, that's what I started my R&D career on way back in 1964 ! "...the world goes round and round."
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| 03-Aug-2005 12:31 |
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Chuck Huang
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I just saw you thread, have you find out any information regarding the composition, properties and suppliers about alloy LAZ933. I will be very appriciated. thank you so much.
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| 24-Jan-2006 10:24 |
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Roger Chang
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I am not sure what percentage of Li contained in LAZ933. We can provide some pieces of Mg-Li alloy for test if anyone needs it. What cost is called reasonable for the alloy?
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| 07-Mar-2006 17:30 |
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Roger Chang
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>Can anyone supply any data on alloy LAZ933. Composition,
>properties and suppliers ?
Hi, do you still need the info? I guess we can provide you with some data and sample for try. Can you tell us what percentage of Li would be contained for need?
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| 07-Mar-2006 17:33 |
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Joshua Deetz
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Well once again Stephen Barrell (if indeed this is a real name) is WRONG. MEL has cast the alloy, I had a run of material made by Mr. Albert Branwood in 2003, it was extruded into Arrow shaft feed stock for cold drawing. It is not fun to cast, admittedly I have never cast it myself.
Taiwan has made this material, given workable order the Russians will made a similar material.
Josh
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| 07-Mar-2006 18:04 |
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V Laxmanan
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Mg-Li alloys have been cast in several foundries, including the foundary operated by MIT students. One has to take precautions but I agree it is overly negative to call it a "bomb". I don't know what purpose is being served by such "explosive" language about a potentially very useful alloy, especially when fuel economy considerations are again capturing our attention.
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| 07-Mar-2006 20:33 |
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Peter Caton
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OK Guys !
To put you all out of your misery - the composition of LAZ933 is "exactly what it says on the tin"......
i.e. Li = 9%
Al = 3%
Zn = 3%
Bal Mg
Since this was an experimental alloy this is the 'nominal' composition.
All Mg/Li alloys are difficult to make due to the reactive nature of Li. So if you really want very light weight my own 'gut feeling' is to use a higher strength material in thinner wall section. It would certainly be more cost effective.
There have been 'lighter than water' Mg/Li alloys but I suspect they floated due to the H2 generated by the Li dissolving !!! Or is that too cynical an answer ?
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| 08-Mar-2006 17:34 |
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Roger Chang
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Hi, your info is helpful. Does anyone know the cost?
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| 08-Mar-2006 18:21 |
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Ilya Ostrovsky
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Density of Mg/Li alloys is about 1.4, therefore they are not lighter than water.
Mg/Li alloys are more corrosive than other magnesium alloys, but they do not react with water generating hydrogen like metallic lithium.
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| 08-Mar-2006 18:27 |
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Peter Caton
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>Density of Mg/Li alloys is about 1.4, therefore they are
>not lighter than water.
>Mg/Li alloys are more corrosive than other magnesium
>alloys, but they do not react with water generating
>hydrogen like metallic lithium.
Yes, the commercial Mg/Li alloys (e.g. LA141) are heavier than water, and the LAZ933 was tested and found to have good stress corrosion resistance - hence my earlier interest in it.
However, some research alloys (e.g. as presented at the Manchester Mg Conference some years ago) were described in a paper as 'lighter than water'. It was THESE alloys that I am very sceptical about !
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| 08-Mar-2006 19:03 |
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Roger Chang
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Hi Peter,
Did you finally find any supplier for Mg-Li alloys? We are interested in this material too. I have got a source in Taiwan. When I get the sample, I will let you know if you would like to. However, the cost is still unknown.
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| 09-Mar-2006 03:51 |
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A U
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Peter:
Just in case you missed them in your search, there are two russian Mg-Li alloys: MA18 and MA21. Their properties are somewhat better than LA141. Both are here: http://splav.kharkov.com/e_choose_mat.php?class_id=76
I have been looking for strong and light structural alloys for some space apps myself. But it turns out that Mg-Li does not really stand out on strength per weight basis compared to Li-less alloys (I compared it to Elektron 21). If one considers reinforcements, Li-containing allows seem to be limited to SiC, while there are options for Li-less ones.
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| 08-Apr-2006 13:53 |
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Peter Caton
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>Peter:
>
>Just in case you missed them in your search, there are two
>russian Mg-Li alloys: MA18 and MA21. Their properties are
>somewhat better than LA141. Both are here:
>http://splav.kharkov.com/e_choose_mat.php?class_id=76
>I have been looking for strong and light structural alloys
>for some space apps myself. But it turns out that Mg-Li
>does not really stand out on strength per weight basis
>compared to Li-less alloys (I compared it to Elektron
>21). If one considers reinforcements, Li-containing
>allows seem to be limited to SiC, while there are options for Li-less ones.
Thanks AU. That site seems very useful - I had not seen those alloys before.
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| 11-Apr-2006 00:14 |
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Guan Jin-Chin
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>The following may also be of interest.
>
>Magnesium Alloys 2000 by Trans Tech Publishers
>http://www.ttp.net/web/search/toc.cfm?ID=0-87849-862-1
>
>Magnesium-lithium metal matrix composites, by S. Kudela
>Int. J. Materials and Product Technology, vol. 18 Nos.
>1/2/3 (2003)
>http://www.interscience.com/storage/f108263719511412.pdf
>
>Figure 3 of Kudela’s article provides a bar graph of UTS
>of various Mg-Li-X alloys. The UTS is more than doubled
>with addition of Al and Zn, going from about 100 MPa to
>210 MPa (for Mg8Li5Al1Zn). Ref. 14 (total of 72
>references) in this article “Development of Super-Light
>Magnesium Materials” by K. Schemme (1993, in German) is also of interest.
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| 21-May-2006 22:20 |
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JUSTIN HALL
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I realize this is an older thread but if anyone is still looking for Mg-Li it is available in commercial production now in many different ways.
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| 28-Feb-2007 01:28 |
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hsu chih-hung
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| 19-Mar-2008 09:51 |
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hsu chih-hung
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| 20-Mar-2008 19:04 |
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Daniel Szirti
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I am looking for alloys LA141 (Mg85-Li14-Al1) and LAZ933 (Mg85-Li9-A3-Zn3) or LAZ931 (Mg85-Li9-A3-Zn1). Would anyone be able to tell me where I could obtain these? I have tried contacting the companies mentioned above, but so far have obtained no reply or was unable to reach them. I would need 1\" diameter extruded rod, 3 to 6 feet long.
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| 27-Feb-2009 22:27 |
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